Fama Fraternitatis - 1614

Wiewohl wir nun wohl wissen, daß es umb ein ziemliches noch nicht an dem, da wieder unserm Verlangen oder auch anderer Hoffnung mit allgemeiner Reformation divini et humani, solle genug geschehen, ist es doch nicht unbillich, daß, ehe die Sonne auffgehet, sie zuvor ein HELL oder dunkel liecht in den Himmel bringt und unter dessen etliche wenige, die sich werden angeben, zusammen tretten, unsere Fraternitet mit der Zahl und Ansehen des gewünschten und von Fr.R.C. fürgeschriebenen Philosophischen Canons, einen glücklichen Anfang machen oder ja in unserer Schätz (die uns nimmermehr aufgehen können) mit uns in Demut und Liebe genießen die Mühsamkeit dieser Welt überzuckern und in den Wunderwerken Gottes nicht also blind umbgehen.

Vi vet dock att det enligt vår åstundan och andras förväntningar efter någon tid kommer en allmän reformation av både gudomliga och mänskliga ting. Ty innan solen går upp, upplyses himlen av
MORGONRODNADENS ljus. I väntan på denna reformation församlas några få som med sitt antal skall utöka vårt brödraskap, höja dess anseende och stärka dess förhoppningar och ge de av Fr.R.C. föreskrivna Filosofiska Canons en lycklig begynnelse. I all ödmjukhet och kärlek skall dessa nytillkomna tillsammans med oss dela våra skatter, som aldrig skall förgås, och så lindra denna världens möda och inte längre vandra ovetande om kunskapen om Guds underbara verk.

Howbeit we know after a time there will now be a general reformation, both of divine and humane things, according to our desire, and the expectation of others: for it is fitting, that before the rising of the Sun, there should appear and break forth AURORA, or some clearness, or divine light in the sky; and so in the mean time some few, which shall give their names, may joyn together, thereby to increase the number and respect of our Fraternity, and make a happy and wished for beginning of our Philosophical Canons, prescribed to us by our brother R.C. and be partakers with us of our treasures (which never can fail or be wasted) in all humility, and love to be eased of this worlds labor, and not walk so blindly in the knowledge of the wonderful works of God.

Definition

Det brittiska ordenssällskapet Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn och den tyska Frimurarlogen L'Aurore Naissante, vilket grundades i London 1888 respektive Frankfurt-am-Main 1807, delade på samma hebreiska namn Chevrah Zerach Bequr Aur, förevisat i gyllene gult vid bloggens huvud, vilket ordagrannt kan översättas till “Stigande Gryningsljusets Sällskap”. Denna tyska Rosenkorsiska Frimurarloge i Frankfurt, vilket måste anses vara det ursprungliga modertemplet till GOLDEN DAWN, kallade sig på tyska även Loge sur Aufgehenden Morgenröthe, vilket kan översättas till “Gryende Morgonrodnadens Loge”. Detta skiljer sig åt från den engelska seden att översätta orden Bequr Aur till “Golden Dawn” eller “Gyllene Gryningen”. Med anledning av Rosenkorstraditionens tyska ursprung är en mer korrekt översättning av Bequr Aur, genom franskans L'Aurore Naissante och tyskans Aufgehenden Morgenröthe, inget annat än GRYENDE MORGONRODNADEN. Denna hänvisning till ett stigande gryningsljus, morgonrodnad eller aurora är en klar hänvisning till den allmäna reformationen omnämnt i det ovan citerade stycket från Fama Fraternitatis. Denna blogg har dock valt att behålla den försvenskade anglo-saxiska termen GYLLENE GRYNINGEN för att denna, invand som den är, lättare associeras med den Rosenkorsiska tradition som här ämnas att framställas.

Licht, Leben, Liebe

lördag 28 augusti 2010

Conversations with a Master Alchemist: On the Creation of the Solar Body of Light

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The discussion regarding the Solar Body of Light, in the wake of Master R.C.:s announcements, has sparked some interesting responses which again has provoked the good Master to voice his erudite opinion. The initial response was that these notions wasn’t unique at all, that they may bee found in the writings ranging from Eastern Tantra, both Hindu and Buddhist, to the more modern western writers of Samael Aun Weor and Kenneth Grant!

Now, recently some anonymous detractor claims that there are absolutely no references at all to the creation of a solar body of light in any of the occidental alchemical writings and that the teachings of Master R.C. is simply a modern invention and deception. He holds that the Hermetic tradition doesn’t concern itself with the creation of a solar body of light, but instead the liberation of the Spirit from the physical body and the yoke of its passions, ideas which are quite reminecent of gnosticism rather than hermeticism in my opinion. He furthermore holds that even the Hindu and Tibetan Tantric traditions doesn’t try to create a solar body of light, but instead only to free the consciousness of the cycle of reincarnations and the ignorance resulting from incarnation and its sensual impressions upon the mind. This detractor even states that any belief in an immortality of some individuality is considered as erroneous for the Indian and Tibetan traditions.

The following response from Master R.C. has been faithfully translated and presented by Lux ex Septentrionis (David Griffin), Frater R+AC.
On the Creation of the Solar Body of Light
by Master R.C.

In response to my recent article, I have been forwarded several letters and comments. I am pleased to observe the interest aroused by the present discussion. This is a positive development, as not enough has yet been written about Hermetic alchemy from an initiatic perspective. Clearly, certain points need to be set forth at this juncture, in accordance with what my own Alchemical Master taught and transmitted to me over the course of decades – in the same fashion as initiatic, alchemical knowledge has been transmitted from alchemical Master to Disciple for Millennia.

My words here may displease certain readers, but I will not hold back the truth merely because others may find it distasteful. I ask you to set aside for a moment all of your preconceived ideas and to read these few lines in a state of serenity and peacefulness of soul, aspiring that the light of consciousness may illuminate our discourse.

Many people today delude themselves with the mistaken belief that all knowledge may be found either in books and publications or on the internet. In the case of Hermetic wisdom in general, and of Alchemy in particular, published works include only the most minimal part of the legitimate teachings. These are, I must once again repeat, transmitted only through true initiation or from an authentically realized Master – and not from a mere thinker – as true transmission is energetic, from Soul to Soul, and not verbal.

In regard to recent questions and comments about the Solar body:

Everything within creation – merely by virtue of being manifest – possesses a vehicle through which manifestation is possible. The existence of form and non-form is one single reality, which is the true nature of the universe and of creation.

The transition from form to non-form is instantaneous and we are never conscious of the passage because, these are two sides of the same coin. Thus, even talking about the change from form to non-form is inaccurate and incorrect – as such a notion imposes conditions appropriate for duality, whereas ultimately it is only unity that exists, which is instantaneously both existence and non-existence.

Consider a point in geometry. A point is indivisible and eternal yet non-existent at the same time. The same may be said about the true nature of the Mercury of the Philosophers.

Therefore, it is in reality not strictly correct to speak of the CREATION of the Solar Body because – since all is ONE – it already exists. Thus the real task is to bring to consciousness the ONE that is within us and that IS us. This is the true mission of Alchemy and ancient Hermetic sciences.

In the orient, this same notion is implied in the statement that MAYA is reality and illusion at the same time, and that these are two sides of the same coin. In fact, it is also written in the East that MAYA is the same as MOKSA – absolute freedom – but this mere affirmation does not equal the realization of this truth or the attainment of absolute freedom!

Such intellectual discourse does not even approach the living truth that all is ONE and that all is ipso facto real and unreal. The truth, the reality or unreality of things is created by our mind itself. This is the true meaning of the RAW MERCURY OF THE PHILOSOPHERS. This Mercury is “raw” in the sense that it is unprocessed. When processed by alchemical means, this Raw Mercury may be transmuted first into Silver, then into purest Gold.

I would like to stress that all that is said here about human beings can also be extended to materials of every nature and grade, and thus applies to physical transmutations as well. All of this – of course, observes the fundamental law of UNITY OF MATTER.

Thus we see that the mind, or the eternal capability of matter, has the power to render real or unreal every single thing – even itself. This – in high degree alchemy – is called SULFUR – the generative capacity of the mind – which uniquely and eternally exists.

When the mind, or Mercury, vibrates, creation IS – yet when it does not vibrate any longer...CREATION VANISHES. This is the power of the MERCURY OF THE PHILOSOPHERS – which can pigment all metals or states of matter.

Thus – when correctly understood – the creation of the Solar Body is the ability to cause your mind (or Mercury) to vibrate in such a way that, by creating waves of form, it generates a state of MATTER-SPIRIT-UNITY that is active in EVERY plane of creation itself. In other words, it is the capability of acting consciously on every gradation of the ONE that is EVERYTHING.

This is the Solar Body that indicates the LIGHT and wisdom of all things simultaneously that is eternal. Hence true Eternity and Immortality is the MIND’S CAPABILITY OF BEING AWARE OF ITSELF AND OF THE TRUE NATURE OF REALITY.

Therefore, every being creates, by its own will, its slavery or freedom. There are those who understand it early and put themselves on the path of wakefulness. There are others, however, who need a lot of time to acknowledge the subtle aspect of creation, in addition to its aspect of form.

Hence we can talk about TRUE IMMORTALITY only when it is CONSCIOUS and AWARE. Otherwise, despite the perpetual eternity of being, we cannot speak of true immortality, when consciousness, not being aware, sinks into the chasm of illusions that are real for us and envelope us by the great power of mind (or Mercury) itself.

Marrying Mercury with Sulphur, creating the double nature, thus may be understood as joining the mind with its own power, thus becoming conscious of who we really are and of our true potentialities. This state we call the creation of the Solar Body and it is represented as a symbol with an OPEN EYE OVER A FOUR STEPPED PYRAMID, which indicates the four states of matter: solid, fluid, subtle, and radiant, which joined together and merged in the state of the mind, that is the QUINTESSENCE or FIFTH ELEMENT, become the Solar Body of Light, which is eternal and indestructible.

The methods to reach this, which on metaphysical basis are in the strictest sense incorrectly called “the creation of the Solar Body of Light,” have never been revealed openly – And even had they been, they would not have been understood by those who are unprepared, living their reality as they want it to be, rather than how it is in truth instead.

I hope I have been clear and that I answered all of your questions and inquiries. All that remains for me to add is that everything I have written and every mental procedure here described may be perfectly reproduced even in a laboratory through alchemy, archemy, or spagery – In other words, by making use of substances that appear – I repeat - that APPEAR – to be outside of us as living beings alone in this actual life on planet Earth.

With love and respect for all living beings,
R.C.
So ends the words of a Master. The interesting thing which emediately pops up in my mind through a initial reading of his words regarding the “Raw Mercury” is that it very much confirms the alchemical teachings of Paul Foster Case in his various courses which he wrote for the Builders of the Adytum. Again I cannot stress enough the significance and importance of reading his works as a Golden Dawn student, which are now being readily available outside of the circles of B.O.T.A. through various publications.

My own thoughts on this matter which the anonymous detractor raises is the following. First of all he is mistaken that there are no references at all to the creation of subtle “bodies” through Internal Alchemy in older alchemical traditions, although they are scarce and highly incomplete; one simply has to look in the right direction. It is variously referred to as the “Secret of Secrets”, such as the “Arcana Arcanorum”, “Secretum Secretorum”, etc. I suggest the reader to look up these references through a search on Google, even on this blog.

Regarding the Eastern Tantric traditions not wanting to create “immortality” and “alchemical bodies”, I suggest the reader too look up David Gordon White’s excellently researched but arduous academic work The Alchemical Body: Siddha Traditions in Medieval India. This will dissipate any such erroneous notions. I was baffled and amazed by the many similarities between Hermetic Alchemy and the Hindu and Buddhist Tantric traditions, both in the general and particular levels of teachings.

Before reading this book I remember seeing a documentary on the Tantric Buddhist tradition in Tibet, how they projected their consciousness at the moment of death to a so-called “rainbow body”. When I saw this reference I understood that the Ageless Wisdom is truly universal. White’s book gives a solidly researched confirmation of this “body”, variosly referred to as “rainbow”, “diamond”, “sonic”, etc., the differences being only that of language and culture.

The Transfiguration of Christ

Having but learned miniscule portions of Hermetic Alchemy in my personal alchemical work, I have suddenly started so see references to it in all kinds of traditions, lately also in the Gospels and in particular in the Eastern Christian Orthodox Church regarding the doctrine of the transfiguration of Christ. It is easily overlooked if one hasn’t the eyes to spot it. Internal Alchemy, such as taught by Master R.C. and his contemporaries, is truly transformative not only in body but also in mind and the outlook on life and in particular on the different and apparently disparate esoteric and exoteric spiritual traditions.

S∴R∴

11 kommentarer:

Anonym sa...

Dear Sincerus Renatus

As I mentioned in my last comment to the text of the Master RC (which has not yet been reviewed by the owner of the blog), there truly is no reference to the solar body in alchemical texts.
The term secret of the secrets (Secretum Secretorum in latin) concerns alkaest, or its form which is not visible to human eyes: the spiritus mundi. With a careful and serious reading of the alchemical texts, it can be seen without any difficulty. As for the term Arcana Arcanorum, it describes the same thing. The most hidden secrets of alchemy, the supreme arcanum, is the uptake of spiritus mundi. This recording can be done only with the magnet of the wise. This magnet of the wise is a salt which identity has never been expressly named in alchemical texts. The authors have described its characteristics and its properties. The difficulty is to know exactly what it is. And that is not given in the text. Only a profound reflection on the world and oneself can discover it. Then, to validate this finding, it must implement the laboratory.
We must get an oily water which radically changes all the materials in contact with one exception (the glass, and Fulcanelli explains why the glass can not be touched). This action of the Alkaest on metals causes the "reincrudation”.


As I also wrote in my comment on the other blog, the rainbow body is not at all a subtle body in which the Buddhist Tantric project their consciousness.
First, because the rainbow body does not exist in the Tantras but in the Dzogchen.
Secondly because the rainbow body is a physical manifestation of the dissolution of the elements of the physical body. This dissolution shows rays of colored light, like rainbows in the sky.
For more information on this subject, I recommend reading the book of Shardza Tashi Gylatsen: Heart Drops of Dharmaka.
Finally, the projection of consciousness exists in the Buddhist tradition, but that is what is called the "powa". And that projection of consciousness is absolutely not the purpose of Buddhism. It is a kind of "escape hatch" which can then be embodied in a land of Buddhas to finalize our spiritual evolution by receiving extra lessons. The "powa" is not the purpose, the Awakening, but a result of much lower level.

Regards.

Anonym

Sincerus Renatus... sa...

Anon wrote: "...there truly is no reference to the solar body in alchemical texts."

If so, that is only becouse the secret has been sucessfully garded.

Anon: "The term...Secretum Secretorum... concerns alkaest, or its form which is not visible to human eyes: the spiritus mundi. [...]As for the term Arcana Arcanorum, it describes the same thing."

You fail to understand that there are mainly two paths of alchemy, equally valid, the "internal" and "external". You are but referring to the "external" or "spagyric" type of alchemy. Fulcanelly which you address, is an Alchemical Master of the external path, or at least that is what he expounds in his books. But I have heard that he also taught "internal alchemy" as well. This is true of most French alchemist, such as the F.A.R+C. That latter oranization also had an internal collage of 12 adepti which taught the "internal" path.

I suspect that you are an anglo-saxon or else you wouldn't express yourself in this dualistic way. Sorry to say, but you are not looking in the right direction. Try again. Perhaps you could use the translation button and look at this one:

http://gyllenegryningen.blogspot.com/2008/07/hemligheternas-hemlighet.html

Anon: "...the rainbow body is not at all a subtle body in which the Buddhist Tantric project their consciousness."

The documentary in question specifically addressed the phenomena of yogis killing themselves through mediational techniques. They compered this with the Tibetan monks surviving the physical death in their rainbow body, which became visible at the moment of death. How plain can it get?

Anon: "...the rainbow body does not exist in the Tantras but in the Dzogchen."

This is hair splitting. Why not call it the "Body of Light" instead, which is a synomym for the "Rainbow Body". Or to quote Wiki: "A rainbow body...is a body, made not of flesh, but instead consisting of pure light." This exactly describes the Solar Body of Hermetic Alchemy.

Let me quote White: "...[Indian] tantric...goal is the production of an immortal yet concrete diamond body that transcends the laws of nature...Tibetan Buddhist...alchemy...whose goal is the acquisition of a spiritualized body of light...the Hindu Trika Kaula...whose goal is the acquisition of a divinized body of sound. All three of these...systems were...refinements upon an original trantric synthesis."

Anon: "Secondly because the rainbow body is a physical manifestation of the dissolution of the elements of the physical body. This dissolution shows rays of colored light, like rainbows in the sky."

I won't argue with this. This again only confirms the Hermetic Alchemical doctrine of the Solar Body, which is a refinement of the physical body.

Anon: "Finally, the projection of consciousness exists in the Buddhist tradition, but that is what is called the "powa".

I again quote wiki: "The rainbow body is the physical mastery state...the corporeal body ...which is now hallowed, returns to the primordial energetic essence of the Five Pure Lights of the five elemental processes... This is then projected as the mindstream through the process of phowa. The realiser of Jalus resides in the timeless, eternal space that is considered a mystery."

That is not a projection of the consciousness into a rainbow body?

In Licht, Leben und Liebe
S:.R:.

Anonym sa...

Dear Sincerus Renatus

S.R. wrote : “If so, that is only becouse the secret has been sucessfully garded.”

Or if so, It is just beaucause there is no solar body in the alchemical tradition...

S.R. wrote : “You fail to understand that there are mainly two paths of alchemy, equally valid, the "internal" and "external". You are but referring to the "external" or "spagyric" type of alchemy. Fulcanelly which you address, is an Alchemical Master of the external path, or at least that is what he expounds in his books. But I have heard that he also taught "internal alchemy" as well. This is true of most French alchemist, such as the F.A.R+C. That latter oranization also had an internal collage of 12 adepti which taught the "internal" path.”

There is no internal alchemy. The concept of internal alchemy appeared with Carl Jung, not before. And Jung did not understand the alchemy.
The Spagyric is the science of medicinal outcome the laws of alchemy. Alchemy is the way to the Philosopher's Stone. This stone is external and requires laboratory work. Those who have begun to talk about inner alchemy are those who have not understood the alchemical texts or who have abandoned the practice in the laboratory after having failed.
Fulcanelli was a Master in Alchemy as a whole, not Spagyric. He also differs significantly in its books the difference between alchemy and Spagyric.
Moreover, he cites the classic texts. And these texts corroborate Fulcanelli books.
It is well to quote an author, but it's better to have read it...
Regarding the FARC, I know one of its first members. And I also know four members of the second circle of the FARC. In the college of 12 adepts, none had the Philosopher's Stone. Moreover, no former FARC has the true Philosopher's Stone. They have obtained an particular (archemy) in the path of cinnabar, which gives only very weak transmutations and medicinal mediocre results. Here, indeed, it's Spagyric.
For the spiritual part of the FARC, it was the universal church of the new alliance that served as support. And this church was first and foremost to return to the bosom of the Catholic Church. I also know several bishops of this church and they found nothing in the transcendent spiritual teachings of Roger Caro. They ended up going to see the side of the East ...

[...]

Anonym sa...

[...]

S.R. wrote : “I suspect that you are an anglo-saxon or else you wouldn't express yourself in this dualistic way. Sorry to say, but you are not looking in the right direction. Try again. Perhaps you could use the translation button and look at this one”

I'm not an Anglo-Saxon. I speak just to give you the opportunity to study real alchemy, on the texts, practicing in the laboratory without preconceptions or bias. This alone can help you understand what alchemy. It is not dual. There is no alchemy external and internal alchemy. There is only alchemy. And this alchemy requires laboratory work. But laboratory work involves internal and spiritual evolution occurs naturally, just by the influence of matter evolving in the laboratory and by the understand of ourself by the study of Nature.

S.R. wrote : “The documentary in question specifically addressed the phenomena of yogis killing themselves through mediational techniques. They compered this with the Tibetan monks surviving the physical death in their rainbow body, which became visible at the moment of death. How plain can it get?”

This documentary is wrong. Read Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen. He is a master who has achieved the rainbow body. It is by no means to commit suicide by techniques of meditation. The rainbow body occurs naturally in the natural death of the practitioner. There is no question of a personal will in the manifestation of this phenomenon.

S.R. wrote : “This is hair splitting. Why not call it the "Body of Light" instead, which is a synomym for the "Rainbow Body". Or to quote Wiki: "A rainbow body...is a body, made not of flesh, but instead consisting of pure light." This exactly describes the Solar Body of Hermetic Alchemy.”

You can not call the light body to replace rainbow body because they are not synonymous. But understand, we must really study the Dzogchen texts. There are few translations. For the rest, they should be read in Tibetan. But the ideal is any way to receive direct instruction from a master of this tradition.

[...]

Anonym sa...

[...]

S.R. wrote : “Let me quote White: "...[Indian] tantric...goal is the production of an immortal yet concrete diamond body that transcends the laws of nature...Tibetan Buddhist...alchemy...whose goal is the acquisition of a spiritualized body of light...the Hindu Trika Kaula...whose goal is the acquisition of a divinized body of sound. All three of these...systems were...refinements upon an original trantric synthesis."”

For the Indian Tantrism, I do not know enough to say anything. But for Tibetan Buddhism, it is clear that there is no question of producing anything immortal. Similarly, in the Kaula Trika or other currents of Kashmir Shaivism, it is about fusion in Shiva (the Self), by no means immortal personal production.
Read the works of Abinavagupta, Uptaladeva for Kashmir Shaivism.

S.R. wrote : “I won't argue with this. This again only confirms the Hermetic Alchemical doctrine of the Solar Body, which is a refinement of the physical body.”

I do not speak of refinement, but dissolution. There is nothing left of the physical body or its subtil parts during the process of rainbow body. Shardza described well, but he is not alone. You can also read the Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyu, the Chaktri or the A Tri.

S.R. wrote : “I again quote wiki: "The rainbow body is the physical mastery state...the corporeal body ...which is now hallowed, returns to the primordial energetic essence of the Five Pure Lights of the five elemental processes... This is then projected as the mindstream through the process of phowa. The realiser of Jalus resides in the timeless, eternal space that is considered a mystery."

That is not a projection of the consciousness into a rainbow body?”

Wikipedia does not have innate knowledge ... The reference to powa is false. Read the texts I mentioned and make your opinion but this time with the canonical sources.

Regards

Anonym

Sincerus Renatus... sa...

Anon wrote: "...It is just beaucause there is no solar body in the alchemical tradition..."

I respect your views regarding the external processes of Alchemy. Honestly there shouldn't be any debate at all regarding this between us. I also believe in the possibility to create a "Philosophers Stone" simply using external processes.

May I please refer you to my essays on the Red Dragon and Black Dragon as an example of my own view upon the external paths:

http://gyllenegryningen.blogspot.com/2009/07/path-of-red-dragon.html

http://gyllenegryningen.blogspot.com/2010/01/path-of-black-dragon.html

But with this kind of rethoric you put yourself on a pedistal as a sole authority on Alchemy. Who are you to do this? Can you please step forward from your anonymosity so that I can give you due reverence?

Anon: "There is no internal alchemy. The concept of internal alchemy appeared with Carl Jung, not before. And Jung did not understand the alchemy."

True Interal Alchemy has absolutely nothing to do with C.G. Jung. Jung's interpretation of alchemy, although interesting from a purely psychoanalytical point of view, is more properly labeled as "spiritual alchemy". I agree with you that "spiritual alchemy" has noting to do with real Alchemy.

Historically evidenced proofs of the existance of Interal Achemy predates C.G. Jung with almost two Centuries.

Anon: "Alchemy is the way to the Philosopher's Stone. This stone is external and requires laboratory work."

I won't argue with you that there exists an external Philosopher's Stone, using "Mineral G" as the Materia Prima. But you fail to see or recognize that there also exists an internal Philosopher's Stone which uses your own body as the Materia Prima.

Anon: "Those who have begun to talk about inner alchemy are those who have not understood the alchemical texts or who have abandoned the practice in the laboratory after having failed."

This kind of argumentation against Inner Alchemy I have read many times before on the Rubellus Petrinus Forum. Perhaps we have already met there? But how many modern alchemists who try to interpret Fulcanneli as an external way have succeded with the creation of the Philospher's Stone? None. All they do is to debate what the Materia Prima actually is: is it Stibnite or is it Galena, or is it God knows what? The so-called alchemists can't even agree on such an fundamental question in their debates. Your rethoric is also typical of the melagomanic "hot air" character of achemists on that Forum which, hoestly speaking, is boring and non constructive. Instead of broadening perspective, it only narrows. Instead of opening boundaries, it barrs.

Anon: "....members of the second circle of the FARC. In the college of 12 adepts..."

Interesting that you corroborate the opinion that the F.A.R+C in fact had an internal collage of 12. Thank's for that information.

In Licht, Leben und Liebe
S:.R:.

Sincerus Renatus... sa...

Anon wrote: "I'm not an Anglo-Saxon. I speak just to give you the opportunity to study real alchemy, on the texts, practicing in the laboratory without preconceptions or bias."

Who has any preconceptions or bias here? As I said before, I agree with you regarding the validity of the external paths. But, contrary to you, I also see that there exists an occidental Interal Path of Alchemy which is similar to Eastern Tantrik methodology. I also recognize that the external path is an reflection of the internal, and that one is understood in the light of the other, if one dosen't have any preconcieved opinions or "darlings to kill".

Again you speak with such an authority in your voice. Who are you? Why won't you step forward and identify yourself?

Anon: "...alchemy...is not dual. There is no alchemy external and internal alchemy. There is only alchemy."

It's true that there is "only alchemy". But as you are well aware of, there exists several paths or ways of alchemy, even though the all belong to the same Royal Art. There is the dry, humid and mixed (amalgam) paths. And there is also interal and external ways which are analogous, hence two aspects of the whole.

Anon: "And this alchemy requires laboratory work."

Of course. But you fail to see that there are different kind of laboratories. There is also your own body which acts as an laboratory.

Anon: "But laboratory work involves internal and spiritual evolution occurs naturally, just by the influence of matter evolving in the laboratory and by the understand of ourself by the study of Nature."

I agree. I have experienced this myself working with an outer laboratory.

Regarding my reference to "yogis killing themselves through mediational techniques" in a documentary and "Tibetan monks surviving the physical death in their rainbow body, which became visible at the moment of death" Anon writes: "...achieved the rainbow body...is by no means to commit suicide by techniques of meditation. The rainbow body occurs naturally in the natural death of the practitioner."

Yes, the Tibetan monks didn't kill themselves. They projected their consciousness into the Rainbow Body at the moment of their natural death, as it the case with Hermetic Alchemists and their Solar Bodies.

Anon: "You can not call the light body to replace rainbow body because they are not synonymous. But understand, we must really study the Dzogchen texts. There are few translations. For the rest, they should be read in Tibetan."

I haven't read any Dzogchen texts nor will I spend any time in learning Tibetan. However, I have three sources to base my view, that of David Gordon White, Wiki and that documentary (which I unfortunately don't remember the title of) which corroborates this opinion. I only have your word that all these sources are wrong. And I don't even know who you are. Who am I (or anyone else) to trust? You, who are anonymous, or sources which easily identify themselves? If you want me to believe your story, come forward and present yourself.

If you wont identify yourself, I won't give you any more opportunity to express yourself on my blog.

In Licht, Leben und Liebe
S:.R:.

Sincerus Renatus... sa...

Anon wrote: "For...Tibetan Buddhism, it is clear that there is no question of producing anything immortal."

Hermetic Alchemy speaks of creating CONSCIOUS immortality. It is a big difference to simply saying "becoming immortal".

Anon: "Similarly, in the Kaula Trika or other currents of Kashmir Shaivism, it is about fusion in Shiva (the Self)..."

Yes, of course. The outcome of Solar Consciousness is the union between the True Self and the "ego" or personal self. This is a valid definition of "Conscious immortality".

You try to create diffusion when there are non. It is simply speaking different ways of expressing the same phenomena. Because it transcends our natual way of thinking and language, it expresses itself with a seeming diversity. But in truth, there are no such diversity.

Regarding the refinement of the physical body into the Solar Body, in comparison with the Rainbow Body, Anon writes: "I do not speak of refinement, but dissolution. There is nothing left of the physical body or its subtil parts during the process of rainbow body."

Again you are splitting hairs. Dissolution may be equated with "death". A body must "die" to be able to "ressurect". Having read the classical texts you should be able to see this analogy with death and refinement. When you refine something out of something else, you have something new. You yourself have stated that the Rainbow Body stems from the dissolved elements of the physical body. Thus the physical body is the Materia Prima from which is crated the Rainbow Body, or Solar Body of Light. "Dissolution" and "refinement" are just words which perhaps both fail to properly describe the process.

Anon: "Wikipedia does not have innate knowledge ... The reference to powa is false. Read the texts I mentioned and make your opinion but this time with the canonical sources."

Thank's for the references. But again I must say that I have three independent sources which confirms each other in the view that these spiritual systems of the East have a common goal of creating a "body" which transcends the phsysical and becomes the new vehicle for the soul to inhabit. Against this I have your words of a anonymous writer. If you want me to take you and your opinions seriously, I invite you to step forward and present yourself to me and my readers. Or else I'm inclined to believe that you are simply trying to create confusion and obscurity through disinformation. And I won't have anything else to do with this on my blog any longer.

This is not a creative discussion. This is a debate with have outserved its purpose.

In Licht, Leben und Liebe
S:.R:.

Sincerus Renatus... sa...

Anonymous debater has posted new comments ranting in his usual way but as he refuses to reveal his true identity I won't post them any longer.

However, he has provided some interesting historical information regarding the F.A.R+C and works of Fulcanelli which I will quote on their respective threads, as per the links I provided with previously.

In Licht, Leben und Liebe
S:.R:.

Rene Nagual, Berlin sa...

Care et V.H. Frater,

thanks for your blog again, its very inspirational and motivating, as always.
Thanks also for providing the letters of R.C. in a row, this is very helpful.
Also, thanks for putting me on the track with "the Transfiguration of Christ". Highly interesting. This gives me new thought stuff, and iam grateful for this.

Fraternally in L.V.X.,
H. Fr. L.e.N.e.

Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn sa...

Care Frater Sincerus Renatus,

I advise you not to waste any further time or energy on our anonymous brother unless he first reveals his true identity. Not only is he hiding behind anonymity, but he is already behaving like an anonymous troll as well.

I refer specifically to the fact that on numerous occasions, he has already ignored all reasoned argument, and instead merely repeated his "talking points" propaganda style.

Whereas, such rhetorical techniques have for decades been part and parcel of the attacks on our order during the Golden Dawn Internet Feud, they have no place in the reasoned discourse of honorable individuals, nor in legitimate, fraternal debate and discussion.

Take, for example, his erroneous statement that the Solar Body of Light and its cultivation have no correspondence in any Eastern initiatic tradition. When you pointed out the substantial body of evidence to the contrary presented by Professor David Gordon White, in his excellent academic work on the subject, The Alchemical Body, Anonym completely ignored this exhaustive volume of academically verified evidence and merely repeated his talking point instead.

Anonym has exhibited identical Troll-like behavior in regard to his erroneous claims that the only "real" alchemy is laboratory alchemy and that there is no such thing as Internal Alchemy. You pointed out that Hermetic Internal alchemy is not at all the same thing as the Jungian psychological interpretation of alchemy as Anonym erroneously suggested, but rather is an actual laboratory process using the physical body as both Prima Materia, Athanor, subtle fires, etc. Here once again, Anonym merely ignored your reasoned discourse and instead repeated his "talking points" propaganda style.

There is simply no point in wasting time engaging in reasoned discourse with someone clearly only interested in propaganda, In short, the internet maxim fully applies here:

"Don't feed the Trolls!"

David Griffin
Imperator Ordinis
Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn
outer order of the
Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega